Announcing Sharx & The Return of IL-2skins!!!!!

[Freelancer1]

I had planned on making the payment system PayPal only. Why? Well, to accept credit cards or checks or money orders, I'd have to set up a corporation and whatnot and that's an expense and hassle I'm not willing to tackle. Anyone know of a way to handle people who are jammed up with PayPal for one reason or the next without me becoming a business?

Unfortunatly, there are quite a few of us who, for various reasons, refuse to use PayPal. I think you will be putting up an unneeded barrier to collecting payment if you go with a PayPal only site.

Lets face it, trying to squeeze even ten bucks out of most people is going to be hard enough. Why make it tougher? Without payment options people will just say fu*k it, and not bother.

I will be happy to send my sawbuck, but not if PayPal is the only option. Please consider this before making any final decisions. If my pub decided to only accept one form of payment, I'm sure I would not be in bussiness very long. I think it's the same for your proposed site. You need to make payment as simple and convienient as possible or you will not see as many customers.

You need to accept the the "expense and hassle" so your customers don't. Simple.

Good luck with it!

Freelancer

[EURO_Snoopy]

There other ways of getting payment on a website:
http://www.thesitewizard.com/archive/creditcards.shtml
http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/0,4 ... 76,00.html
http://www.monstermerchantaccount.com/

google for more


Have a look at those LB

[Luckyboy1]

Again Eurosnoopy to the rescue!

Sounds great! My biggest concern is that people be able to prove they paid and the problem with setting up a merchant account would be the initial cost and again, you'd need a company Incorporated or something and then there's lawyers etc.


Using the third party methods means you'd have to pay a minimum per transaction fee and those can run like $3.00 a piece, but I've heard some are lower, so I'll check it out. The U.S. Federal law keeps me from charging credit card customers the extra expenses involved, so that's not an option either. If it's possible, I'll do it; why not?! See, I'm easy!

I've heard some cowards posted over at UBI that my motive is profit here and of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Does this mean I'm honest? Absolutely not! I have a price and here it is...

In 1977 I decided my price so you will have to adjust for inflation and here are my terms...

777 million U.S. used, but current print $100.00 bills all on pallets with parachute packs loaded on a perfectly functioning C-130 that I have written permission from the President of the United States unconditionally pardoning me and giving me permission to take the plane and never return it or any of its' contents.

If that can be arrainged, I could care less if it's the Widows and Orphan's fund, I'm taking it and won't even blink as I do it!!!

Short of that, it's just too small potatoes to mess with, so don't get yer hopes up about corrupting me for less!

Look, with PayPal at least you could prove you paid me. If I tried to hide the money,... remember, I'm going to publically post the books so everyone knows what I've pulled in.... you could post in other forum about how I ripped you off and that would bring the whole thing to a halt right there. It's kinda sad that I even have to think out such a scenario. Again, if credit cards are possible without having the system subsidize the credit card payers too much at the expense of the PayPal types, we'll do it!

I've also had proposed a 6 month membership and that doesn't work because there is the intitial cost of punching the code and that's static no matter what and hiring a hosting company is best done on a yearly contract basis and I'm not about to be left holding the bag on that one.

Now, this brings up a point I've been wanting to make for a long time and it seems the prefect time to do it right now. We as a community need to start fingering out which side of the bread the butter is on and it's not at UBI. they could care less about flight sims and only market it in order to get Oleg to punch code for more profitable games.

I want you to think about who's kept the best interests of the flight simmer in mind all along. Yes, it was originally called mudmovers and was sorely missed for a while. It is now back as http://www.airwarfare.com and all along, it has been a great resource and what have they made off the deal?... nothing!

I wrote up Luckyboy's Guide For Complete users so we could all have a game based on pilot skill and not computer knowledge or insider information. My reward for writing it up was to earn many an enemy and my attitude is so what?! They can go their way and I'll go mine. There was a couple of individuals who posted the guide on their squad sites and ping666 helped as well, but none of them had the clout Eurosnoopy had and he went against enormous pressure not to host it. Why? Because he has the best interest of the game at heart and I'm sure for that and other good deeds, he's been roundly punished by a few.

The problem is the "few" out there are very vocal and would leave you with the impression that they are the majority. Don't be fooled! You guys, the ones who take the information and use it and enjoy the game and don't kick up much fuss, you are the majority. But we need you to be more vocal. We also need you posting here instead of at UBI where they could care less about and actually are hostile towards future flight sim development.

Hey guys, it's up to you what you want. Hide your heads in the sand or stand up for yourselves.

[Greg_Boyington]

Hi all,

I've got some questions for Luckyboy, but i think they should be public.
I've read carefully all that was posted here and at UBI about the possible rebirth of IL2skins.
but first let me tell you a few about me :

I'm not involved in any big skinsite like FL or something else. i'm a member of France-simulation.com, as a skinner and a staff member; this site has a good skinning team, but has nothing to compare with an FL or IL2skins.

So, lets start :
Here, on the forums, i've read a lot of posts about how the "new" IL2skins will be fantastic.
But i haven't read a lot about how it'll be managed.

So here are my questions :

- Who will manage the code if a crash occurs, and who will upgrade the original Sharx' code to add new planes, for example? Sharx? you said he is very busy....and he i hase the time to do this, i wonder why he didn't started up IL2skins himself.

- You said "Anyone submitting more than 20 original and significantly different skins gets access to the site for free. Dumping other's work into the database does not count!". With such a system, it means you need to check each skin 1 by 1. Imagine 50 skinners....20 skins each.... = 1000 skins to check? And what is an "original and significantly diffeet skin"? I'm a skinner, and i can make 20 "original and significantly different" skins in 1 hour. Sure, they'll be quick-made an ugly. But who will judge of those skins?

- Has anyone read the Il2 EULA? Is it legal to sell repaints for Il2&sons without permission from Ubisoft or 1C? Lots of skinners use part of the void file to do their skins. Those void files are part of the game, so they are copyrighted, and for non-commercial use. And, sorry, but paying a sunscription to get the download access is a commercial use.

- You choosed the paysite system. What about the free bandwith that was offered at SimHQ ofr IL2skins since....more than 6 monthes? Did you read it? you didn't show interest about this generouse offer...

- I'm not good in mathematics, but :At $160 a month it will cost $1920 a year for a "professional" server to host it. Yet you're asking for at least 500 subscriptions at $10. That comes to $5000. So this leaves $3020. Ok, you payed Sharx for the code, $1600. That leaves $1420 left over in the first year it is up. You didn't created the code, neither the skins....but you'll have the money (if it works). Sounds strange to me.

I know i'm asking a lot of things...but to be frank, i only see in all of this a financial interested. I hope i'm wrong. It's your deal to proove your intentions...

regards,
Greg.

[Luckyboy1]

The figure of 500 people speaking up takes into consideration that there's more typing going on that paying, so words are well, words and don't pay for server space. Also, yes, we'd need Sharx to look at code and issues from time to time but that pales in comparison to punching the code to get the site laid out and running.

If UBI or Maddox had an issue with any pay system, I'd tend to think they would have chimed in already about PayPal payments already made to the old Il2skins.com and other sites as well. It is non-profit, so I doubt there will be any problems.

The real sticky wicket in my opinion is sorting out who made what skin. Headers and titles and authentication can be faked, but I doubt anyone's gonna go through all that trouble just to save $10.00... but then again, with the fuss that's being kicked... I guess I get surprised every day! The bottom line on that one would be we would never intentionally post anyone's work without their written permission to do so.

However, just saying it is your skin won't be enough because you can claim to be a teapot for all I know and it may be true! This is where ther sticky part comes in as far as I'm concerned. However, it won't be a world ruled by Luckyboy. I'm going to try and get some qualified people... preferably people who are already well known skinners to form a board of trustees to oversee any complaints on that sort of issue. again, I deeply respect the skin artists and wish we could do more for them than give them free access to the service.

As far as why Sharx hasn't done this himself?.... you mean the complete deal... well, look in the mirror for that answer and beyond that, e-mail him and see if he gives you a different story because I've got nothing to hide. The truth is that if a donation system would have worked, we'd have a decent skin site up and running and what I mean by that is one as good or better than Sharx old site and sorry guys, no offense intended, but if you can provide me a link to a site that compares, let's see it!

You're gonna have to poney up more than a couple grand before I'll obscond with the funds. I do have my price and conditions. I can become a thief and I've laid out my terms. Any extra money raised will go to either improving the site, benefitting and promoting skinning by maybe having contests or the money will be rebated to the people who paid in.

Looking for a bad motive here? Well, don't go away dissapointed, believe what you want, but just go away because I'll not dignify it further by minding it anymore. You think I put together Luckyboy's guide For Complete Users together in a day, a week or even a couple of months of work? If you think so, write one yourself! Did I ask for payment? With the exception of the financial question, I found the other questions to be spot on and if anyone thinks I'll be able to do this project alone, they are kidding themselves.

Still, you guys decide what you want. Man, no good deed goes unpunished!

[VMF-214_Phantom]

I will give ten dollars a year

[IV/JG1_Oesau]

Luckyboy1,

I think the legal issues about “selling” any skins based on the voids are to do with the fact that you are providing a fee for service site, which is commercial. Other sites are based on donations, which is something entirely different legally and in the minds of others.

Now I know you aren’t selling the skins as such, the subscription is for the site itself. I raised a point earlier about providing a fee for service for international users, which I believe, has legal restrictions. I think you should at least get confirmation on. I know there are people out there that do not like you and I think you need to cover yourself and have a clear understanding of you legal standing before funds are invested.

These things are unfortunately never as straight forwards as we first think. The legal issues here would be wiped clear with it being a donations payments service. But we know that people probably wont provide any funds and you’ll be forking out all of the costs yourself.

[Greg_Boyington]

Thanks for your quick reply.

If UBI or Maddox had an issue with any pay system, I'd tend to think they would have chimed in already about PayPal payments already made to the old Il2skins.com and other sites as well. It is non-profit, so I doubt there will be any problems.

It's really not the same. Donation system is not a commercial use. A subscription is, with or without profit. I think you should ask this at someone's at 1C or Oleg, because it could be a source of problems.
I hope not, but there are more and more lawsuites in this world...

Looking for a bad motive here?

I'm not looking for a bad motive....i'm just trying to be objective, that's why i asked to you all those questions.

no offense intended, but if you can provide me a link to a site that compares, let's see it!

I agree....but in fact, existing sites are certainly less-easy-to-use, but not so far from the old IL2skins. And about skins, nowadays there are less skins to download, but more quality work.

You think I put together Luckyboy's guide For Complete Users together in a day, a week or even a couple of months of work? If you think so, write one yourself! Did I ask for payment?

It's the same for skinners. I was wondering what could have been your reaction, when you finished up your guide, if someone asked you to pay to upload it?
Trust me, i'm not here to do some "easy criticism". For my part, i'm not involved in all this story, because free or not, i'll never upload again at IL2skins.com : i've simply found a better place, where i feel "at home".
But there's nothing about Sharx or you in this decision, it's simply my personal taste. And i'm a minor skinner, so my opinion is not so important.
But i'm simply curious, as a guy remembering the "old days of IL2skins".

[Luckyboy1]

I've already spoken with a friend who is a copyright attorney. He doubts they'd have any legal standing because they've already allowed thye "donation" thing to go ahead and a payments a payment.

He also told me something very curious. He said no copyright claim is foolproof and at the same time, no copyright claim is without merrit. In other words, at a point, it becomes a matter of lawyering. He thinks as long as it is truly a not for profit, that it will only help sales of the game and doubts any trouble will result. However, if I'm found using the money to visit a T&A bar, well, then all of a sudden, they are gonna want a cut and fair enough.

I've just left a message for some Dude named Brian at UBISoft in San Fransisco, CA U.S. and his message says he'll be out of the office this week, but he7y, I've asked and I can do nothing more than that.

[Luckyboy1]

I'm not asking for payment from true skinners. So the upload question is nonsense.

Close to Sharx old site? Let's see, there were over 15,000 skins hosted on Sharx old site and to say that at least 1,500 were not first rate would be an insult, so let's see... got a link to one that has 1,500? How 'bout one that has 750?... 500?... ok, ok, how about 250?... no?... and by the way, how clean a site with nice filtering capabilities so you didn't have to wade through what you didn't want?

Minor skinner?... I don't believe in such a thing. The 20 skins thing was an idea to keep someone from just taking somebody elses work and slapping on a decal or something or a picture of a nekid woman... don't get me wrong, I'm sleezy enough to love those skins but to let someone like that get on free while keeping off someone who put out a few skins that took the 10's to hundreds of loving hours to create?... So you can see why I'd need help from skinners to decide who qualifies for free access and who doesn't. Even if you never posted your own skins, your opinion would be valuable.

Does this mean you're some kind of a skunk for not giving your artwork to the site? Of course not! Please do not let my sometimes course way of speaking make you think I don't admire skinners. You already put more out for the community now than your mouth and I can do nothing but respect that no matter how you do it!

[Luckyboy1]

I think most of you know by now that I'm banned by IP over at UBI forums. Someone was kind enough to send like a page's worth of discussion on the subject of this project discussed at UBI. I was surprised to see it was mostly positive. Being a paranoid sort I guess, this makes me nervous. People showed their support at UBI, but haven't e-mailed me telling me they support this project with more than their mouth. Again, I am asking for no money now, just an e-mail saying yes or no.

To clarify to the best of my ability without writing a book about it, I was banned at UBI per my own request and yes, I did eventually come crawling back asking to be let in again and the answer was NO!

Now, DO NOT beat up on the mods at UBI forums over this issue because...

1) It won't change anything.

2) I asked for it, so be careful what you ask for.

See, there were some long term issues of my feeling I was being held to a higher standard than the rest as far as posts go. There were also issues of just plain old censorship. Still, I posted and tried to get along. Then I dumped a bundle of money into getting a computer that could hump this game around seemlessly at prefect settings. It wasn't for bragging rights, it was so I could enjoy the game for myself. Then all the whiners started in with wanting to bog the game down further as the 4.0 patch began to be discussed as to what we wanted in it.

Do you guys know what a bunch of lucky dogs you really are as far as imput to this game goes? Oleg, in spite of his critics actually listens to you and tries to respond. This on one end is a good thing and on my end, I felt it would finish off game development by finally choking the last life out of the game.

Then I managed to bugger my video card and I kinda snapped... just kinda Luckyboy?... ok, ok, I confess, I had a full blown psychotic meltdown and I threw a fit and wouldn't stop throwing a fit about how you all ruined my game... how rediculous! Even if I was right about it all and only history will decide that and if I'm right, it will be more a matter of accident than anything else, I still had no right to abuse my friends.

Anyways, the bottom line is I don't see UBI forums and no, I'm not going to go to the library just to see that site. I will never post there again until the mods make a public announcement saying it is ok for me to do so and don't hold your breath for that one! As a result, I NEED people to e-mail me directly with your yes or no answers and pass this little blurb around to your friends and mayber even post it at UBI. It goes as follows...

I need you to e-mail your friends with the link to this thread so we can get the word out because this issue will not sit for long before being decided if there is enough support to proceed....

http://www.airwarfare.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=898

Nobody wanted a free skin site or a site that could do what http://www.il2skins.com did on a donation basis more than me. Unfortunately, the bandwidth and server demands of such a site make a subscription based system about the only way I know of getting it done in a manner that everyone can enjoy... except for the 10 bucks a year part of course!

Please have them e-mail...

callingelvis911@yahoo.com

with either their yes or no and no answers are just as valid as yes answers. Feedback is the key here because it's not about me or Sharx or any power issues. It is about getting access to skins like we had back in the day and I again thank you for your support and feedback!

[VF-12_sluggo]

Here under a new name!

I saw the post over at UBI and watched with interest, First is I'm it!. I started understanding this game enough to want skins but IL2Skins was down by that point.

The second issue I see is what the flip?, If you make it happen and the pricing is reasonable then you should keep the profits, this ain't Cuba pal.

I run a hobby based business and we make a very little amount of money, basically enough to buy the books for the next project. If we could make some more we would but it would go to adding more disigners. So if you take the risk, you should get the reward. I know your motives are good, don't worry about the few that question.

I could see however, that you could impliment a royalty system, that *IF* you get enough revenue to fund the site and programing and *if* you are generating enough cash flow to have extra then you could set up a co-op program for the skinners where if they have a certain level of good, origonal skins then they would get a private donation for the work they do.

The amazing work that these people do should be rewarded by flying the skins and buying them a pizza and a beer once and a while.

If you need I have access to ways of accepting credit cards and setting up the process, PM if needed.

Go for it!

[Luckyboy1]

Well, I appreciate the sentiment, but no, it's going to be not for profit. I've been tols someone posted over at UBI a what if question that went something like...

What if he gets 90,000 people to sign up? Does that mean he'll keep $80,000.00? This sort of sensational statement is wrong...

1) I've yet to reach the 100 mark of e-mails saying they'd go for the deal. I've had about four no's and 1 drop dead Luckyboy!

2) I can accept a certain amount of money without declaring it on my taxes. After that, I'd have to set up a legal, not for profit and there are costs to set it up and administer it. Yes, there would be economies of scale if famously successfull. There would also be increased administrative costs as well as pipeline (bandwidth) costs as well as more server capacity needed.

3) I think I've already said like how many times in this thread that any extra money will be plowed back into the site or refunded.

4) If I pocket money, then UBI, Grumman, Boeing, Maddox and about the whole world has a right to a piece of it and after the squabbling's done, only the lawyers will be fed on that one.


Now, before we get just too far ahead of ourselves into what ifs, how 'bout we just get up the basic support because without it, I'll drop it and leave it lay. Will somebody else just pick it up and run with it? They haven't so far so don't count them even as eggs, much less chickens in the basket at this point.

Someone over yonder also wanted to know how I'd run the site all by myself. I've already said over and over in this thread that I'm not, can't, even if I wanted to be King of this pile, I couldn't ever be. It is going to need help, and I've already asked for it. NOT help from little minions, but true equals or even betters on some subjects. I've had just 1 skinner respond saying he'd help with the judging of skins and arbitrating who really made what skin.

Are we a community that says why will it work? Or are we the can do community that says why not?!

[Hunhunter]

Hi Luckyboy

The "sensational statement" you refer to is probably the one I posted at UBI. I can't recall mentioning the figures you quote so I will paste the entire post below so you can read it as that would seem the fair thing to do. My "sensational" figures were based on a hypothetical scenario where a quarter (yep, only a QUARTER) of il2skins.com registered users from the original site sign up to the new site and pay their $10. If the site is as good as its being touted, is it really so unreasonable to say that 1 in every 4 old users will sign up to the new site??? Remember, il2skins.com had around 50,000 registered users. I used to be Administrator there (ask Sharx ) so I guess I am qualified to pass on a few facts??

Anyway, here is what I posted at UBI.....

Ok, just to clarify my earlier remarks. If this thing gets off the ground then I wish Luckyboy all the luck in the world with it. IL2skins.com was a legend in its own lunchtime and will be a hard act to follow.

The reason I pointed out a few financial figures was not as some cheap shot to indicate that LB was in some way out to rip people off, far from it. I was just trying to provoke some thought on the issue as it seems to have been glossed over with little thought. As far as money goes, there are two really serious issues here that need addressing. Just supposing that the new site does indeed get a quarter of the users of the old site sign up and pay the $10. As I pointed out this could lead to an income of over $100,000. LB has stated that he intends to make all the accounts public so fair play to him for that, but whats going to happen if people see something like a $90,000+ profit?? LB can either keep it or give it back. Giving it back would be a serious amount of work and when moving those sort of figures around without paying tax or running it as a business, people are going to ask questions.

On the other end of the scale, supposing the site gets only 200 registered users. Is LB prepared to foot the bill (like Sharx did) to keep the site running? If the site closes in under a year due to this there would be a lot of people wanting refunds leaving an even bigger loss. I mean, when IL2skins closed, we had people saying we had ripped them off and they wanted their DONATIONS back!! Thats nothing compared to what LB will get if his site folds with PAYING subscribers. Hopefully I am making my point. We can only guess at the sort of numbers the new site will attract. If 500 is greatly exceeded, LB will be making a healthy profit and that will generate problems. Less than 500 users and you're into loss making territory. I'm sure that LB's motives are genuine and honest but this just doesn't seem to have been thought out very well.

As for the legal and copyright issues, well thats another potential minefield that some people seem content to brush under the carpet. What short memories we have. Have people already forgotten the Lockheed/Grumman lawsuit of a couple of years ago?? Also, a (nameless) skinner created merry hell a while back because someone was said to have used a tiny piece of his skin in a PF UBI commercial add on. I am not saying this was right or wrong, merely using it to illustrate how seriously some people take guarding their work.

Luckyboy, I wish you all the best with this project, I had a lot of fun being involved with the original site and hope you get the same enjoyment. But I really think you need to take more time to look at all the potential issues and problems that a project like this will bring. It all seems very rushed and you seem to have a very simplistic view of things.

As you can see, its not really a negative post, it was more a case of raising a few concerns and hopefully asking a few questions that would be answered. I stand by my statements in that post and believe that the finance side of things is being handled poorly to say the least. Will you run the site at your own expence if you only get 200 members?? How will you give money back if you get 3000/5000 or 10,000 members?? Even a 1000 members which is EASILY reachable will generate 10 grand!! These are not cheap shots, just serious issues that need looking at, and better to look at them now and cover all the "what if's" rather than after people have handed over their cash.

I had an open mind about the whole project really. I couldn't really see any problem as long as the finance issues were dealt with properly along with the copyright issues. That was until just now when you posted....

Someone over yonder also wanted to know how I'd run the site all by myself. I've already said over and over in this thread that I'm not, can't, even if I wanted to be King of this pile, I couldn't ever be. It is going to need help, and I've already asked for it. NOT help from little minions, but true equals or even betters on some subjects. I've had just 1 skinner respond saying he'd help with the judging of skins and arbitrating who really made what skin.

Who the hell do you think you are to judge who is your "equals"are?? Are you now devising a class system for your site?? The "little minions" as you call then were the foundation of il2skins.com. They were the ones that would come to our forum and ask for help with skinning and know they would get it without any snidey remarks. I can name some big names in skinning that started as "little minions" and posted up their first skin asking for comments or help.

And I think you have seriously misjudged skinners if you think they will happily submit their skins to judged on their quality and whether you will graciously allow them on your site. The skinning community as a whole has always supported the newbie skinners and provided them with help and encouragement. I even built an entire website dedicated to helping people who wanted to learn to skin and ran it as a free service. That was the spirit of the original il2skins, all were welcome regardless of talent, and help and advice was there if needed, not the brick wall that would be presented to newbies at your new site.

I hope you choose a new name for your site as what you are proposing is a long way removed from the spirit of il2skins.com. Until today, i was really just neutral on this new site, I just had a few concerns and questions. But the more of your posts I read, the less I support it. I'm sorry Luckyboy, I'm sure your intentions are good but your idea's and values would make the site some sort of elitest skinners group and thats just not what il2skins was about.

Hunhunter
EX Admin il2skins.com

[Luckyboy1]

1 out of every four is so far outside any optomistic spec that it shows either colosal bad judgement on your part or that you are simply throwing sensational bombs and for reasons I don't care to learn. For a bunch of guys who spend thousands on computers and bandwidths to get this game up and running, they sure are tight with the funds. Where were these 1 out of 4 every time the server at http://www.il2skins.com said too busy? Where were these 1 out of 4 when the site went down? Where in the wide world of sports were these 1 out of 4 for over a year now?

I'll tell you where they've been... out to lunch and they ain't gonna spend a dime on jack for skins.

Serious issues? Man, you try and throw blatent bombs or just plain foolish statements like that and then try and add a little disclaimer to the end and hope I won't flame you for it?

As far as a class system and my enforcement of it?... as if I can enforce anything! Ok, I do have a class system, I freely admit it! Here it is. There are about 2,000,000 people worldwide playing this game. Of these Hostess Ho-Ho's, only 50,000 or so actually bought Pacific Fighters or something that included it. I won't argue that point. Wanna argue it, speak with steve v or UBI U.S. in San Fransisco, CA because he provided the figures and UBI U.S. confirmed that with me on the phone. It's the 50,000 that have these massively built PC's and I know you don't feel that way because you don't get a zillion frames per second like with some of your less demanding games... it's the 50,000 who in spite of financial pressures and a desire to spend the money on further hardware upgrades who actually poney up the funds, well, those are the elitists I represent. These "elitists" as you might call them are mostly older men who have financial responsibilities beyond this game, yet they manage somehow not only to buy the game, but to also put up with bomb throwing snobs and fools and donate to http://www.il2skins.com when it really hurts financially to do so. I've already mentioned three squads in this thread that gave money way out of proportion to what they took from the server. Almost to a man they are not rich and struggle to make ends meet like everyone else.

The other 1,950,000 can all jump and bounce twice... hopefully three times on impact! Those little minions never paid for this game or donated to http://www.il2skins.com or did anything other than suck the marrow of life out of the system. Who's fault is that? Well, ours for just letting them do it! Fine, you know big time skinners.

Where can I download their stuff? I don't mean 25 of their favorites... where's the other 14,975 that are missing in action here? The only criteria for accepting skins will be authentic skins by original artists... and that my admininstator... that respects the skin artists!

The giving of money back is easy enough if you keep the books in the first place and yes, I've already repeatedly said I would do so and post it for all to see.

What I'm hoping for is for 1% of that 50,000 to respond by sending me an e-mail and NO MONEY at this time and so far, it ain't happened. What you've said is so far beyond the point of hysterical as to defy description.

This is truly a sad day for this game. To even entertain such nonsense! Fortunately, I'll let you guys be the judge. You don't want it, don't wait for me or anyone else to suck up the thousands of dollars so the pirating mongrel can free range graze upon the efforts of original skin artists, regardless of present skill level.

And anyone coming back with the I'm from a poor Country nonsense is just that. You managed to get ahold of a PC that can run the game and a connection that can make the trip to HyperLobby and back, so crying poverty is just a very, very bad lie!

Excuse me now because I gotta go puke and then get drunk!