Announcing Sharx & The Return of IL-2skins!!!!!

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Announcing Sharx & The Return of IL-2skins!!!!!

Postby Luckyboy1 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 am

Well, I talked to Sharx and made him an offer he can't refuse. He's so busy, that he'll punch the code and I tried my best to get him to charge full price for it, but he simply wouldn't go for it. He estimates to do a first class job of punching the code for the site, it will take him at least 80 hours. I tried to get him to take $50.00 an hour for his work, but he offered way less and I managed to force him up a bit, but in the end, the basic web development will only cost will be $1,600.00 and for the quality of his work that is a steal!

Then it will cost about $160.00 a month to get it hosted professionally. So, to cover the costs, I would need 500 subscriptions of $10.00 per year to keep the site going. I'm not about to waste Sharx time and my money on something others will not support.

Anyone submitting more than 20 original and significantly different skins gets access to the site for free. Dumping other's work into the database does not count!

So, what will you get for your 10 bucks a year?

You'd get access to a first class server that is professionally run by a professional hosting company and the website designed by Sharx.

You'd have an area where you can password protect access to skins that you want only limited availability like squad skins.

For you dial-up people, your subscription would entitle you to access to a disc of all the skins publically available on the site, but there will be an additional fee for that service.

Send NO money at this point, but I need people to commit to this idea in order for it to work. E-mail me saying you're in at....

callingelvis911@yahoo.com

Don't sit and think about it. If I can't generate enough interest in one week, well, then we'll be without a skin server for who knows how long because I'm too old anhd tired to beg you guys to do something that just plain makes sense.

Also, someone please post a link to this over at scooby-dooby-UBI.com so the great unwashed can get in on it as well! :wink:
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Postby EURO_Snoopy on Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:32 am

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Have you contacted any of the skinners yet?
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:03 am

I've not contacted a single one of 'em for fear someone might acuse me of spamming. I'd think that as the word gets out, they will contact me with their questions and concerns.

This brings up a point I want to reinforce. Yes, to a degree, the site is going to treat skinners kinda like royalty. You may say to yourself, "why do I have to pay a subscription when the skinners get to go to the site for free"? Well, that's because skinning is a true artform. Think it's not true? Try it yourself sometime. There are skinners out there who have spent literally hundreds of hours laying down hundreds of layers to get the effect they want on just one skin, especially with the historically correct ones and the weathered looks that are done well. This does not mean that I don't repect the non historic skins. Quite the contrary because when done well, they can take a great deal of work as well. Even if it is a quicky skin, it can have merrit.

As a result, there will be skinning forums to help the aces and the new guys as well. Any extra money raised for the site will be plowed right back into it with a push for at least some of the extra benefitting skinners directly. We could hire a paint program expert to have tutor sessions or do other things the skinners want.

Also, if a skinner wants a skin removed that is their original work... off it goes and I mean like right now! The artists will be respected! If an artist wants the skin available in read only format, that's the way it will be. In order to prevent security issues, they cannot submit the skins in read only format, but a note saying post it in read only will be absolutely respected, so don't ask to have me post it in a way the skin artist does not want it presented.

Again, don't ask me for access to squad skins because if they are password protected, that's for a reason and the integrity of the content will be respected. This is again an absolute and personalities will not play into it. It don't matter if I like your squad or not, you get the respect!

I would love to hear from skinners... especially now before Sharx punches the code. After all, without the skins and good ones, as well as the not so good ones as people learn and post for feedback, what is the site in the end?
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:31 am

A couple more ideas for the site that I will ask Sharx if it's possible to implement...

1) Some guys... ok, most of us are not offended by a bit of T&A on the planes and quite often, it is historically correct... after all, it's what we're fighting fer boys! 8) However, some folks have like kids and want to restrict the bump and grind show. I'll see what we can do to have it so those who register as not being adults or who request not having access to possibly questionable material can have those skins filtered out. Along that line, there are a few who don't like the Nazi symbol and fair enough. maybe we can make a filter for that too. I'll ask Sharx and let you know.

2) I know some folks are kinda thin skinned or maybe I'm just an @ssh@le or who knows, but sometimes folks get offended. I'd hate to see some not enjoy the site. As a result, there will be an anything goes forum where you can spout like RBJ and Luckyboy genetically combined and on crack! Those who violate rules of the more serious forums and yes, there will be a serious political forum in the historic sense of the word... instead of banning their thoughts because I detest censorship, if you offend big time, you might find your forum priviledges restricted to the "anything goes" forum for a time or even forever if you do something really stupid... see Luckyboy's last few posts in UBI forums for examples! :shock:

Still, try not to make petty complaints. Wanna some cheese with that whine? Well, Wisconsin is ready when you are, so go there and leave the forum mods alone on small deals. After all, most of us are adults... well, sort of, and we should be able to just use mind over matter. You shouldn't mind because if you think the other guy was out of line, he don't matter anyways!
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:30 am

All the responses so far have been positive and only one person said they couldn't afford $10.00 U.S. a year for the site. It's not that I don't sympathize with those who have financial problems. I've had 'em myself and know what it's like. $10.00 is not alot of money... unless you don't have it! Still, if you can afford a computer good enough to run IL-2 FB, then you've got the $10.00 stashed somewhere. Then it becomes a matter of if you are willing to pay a small fee to make it so a non-profit site that will experience big time bandwidth and hardware/software demands can function at a decent download and upload speed.

Think about it, if anyone could have done as well as Sharx old site for less, it would have been done by now. The internet is NOT free. Someone has to pay for all that server capacity and bandwidth. I'm thinking back to the old 361st who put up over $100.00 that I know of and probably more and the Danger Dogs and Hell Hounds who put up over $250.00 for the old http://www.il-2skins.com

These guys were not and are not rich people. They struggle to afford this game like everyone else. I know there were many others who threw in money as well. Still, in the end, too few paid too little to keep it all going even at the almost always busy rate the site ran at. Right now, we have a smattering of sites that offer a few skins for download. Even hosting 20 or so skins can make a guy struggle to afford to keep the site up and running.

Especially when you consider that the same guys who paid Sharx are also the guys who actually legally purchased the game... well, it just isn't fair to try and make it work as a donation system. If a donation system could support a site like Sharx had, it would be up and running now and it isn't and as far as I know, it never will due to cost concerns.

Maybe I'm not enough of a "gamer" or too much of a flight sim pilot to appreciate those who rale against the evils of charging for anything on the internet. The truth is, the average skin file is not small and will tax any site that hosts even a few. Sharx hosted thousands for years and the community as a whole just pimped him back and forgot about him, never so much as giving a single Zloty to the effort.

This is the best I can come up with. You got a better idea? Let's hear it!
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:31 am

I had planned on making the payment system PayPal only. Why? Well, to accept credit cards or checks or money orders, I'd have to set up a corporation and whatnot and that's an expense and hassle I'm not willing to tackle. Anyone know of a way to handle people who are jammed up with PayPal for one reason or the next without me becoming a business?
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Postby CrazySchmidt on Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:30 am

Not meaning to burst any bubbles here fellas, but what about sites like "Flying Legends" and similar that are merging and are filling the gap?

IL-2 skins was my favourite skin site as well, but things have moved on and people are understanding as disappointing as it is, that Sharx cannot support the financial burden of running a site of this calibre anymore.
So the choices are, finding new quality free sites of similar quality or paying for what was once free.

I sympathise with Sharx and his team, I believe the passion for developing IL-2 skins is still very much alive, but as one might expect, this takes second place to the precedence of real life and family expenses.

I for one, I will not pay for membership to skin download services. The IL-2 series has functioned this long without it's fans having to pay for third party services such as skin downloads, it will survive well beyond the memory of IL2Skins.com with the services of similar new and upcoming sites.

I understand the passion of applying many, many hours of personal time into this flight sim and it's community, but it has always been my belief that when the time comes to charge, you'd better have something so unique to offer that it wakes Oleg himself out of sleep.

IL-2 skins was beautiful and well structured, easy to navigate and the community felt at home there, it was where everyone went to download skins. All of these things are a monumental credit to Sharx, but the beauty of this within the IL-2 community I feel, has always been that these wonderful things were free.

I sincerely hope I have not offended any Airwarfare or IL-2 members with my opinion within this post, but I feel very strongly about this topic.

Cheers, CS. :)
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Postby EURO_Snoopy on Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:59 am

CrazySchmidt wrote:Not meaning to burst any bubbles here fellas, but what about sites like "Flying Legends" and similar that are merging and are filling the gap?


I have read in SimHQ, UBI and other forums that Flying legends have been struggling with bandwidth costs for a few months now. There has also been discussion of a payware structure being introduced: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/ ... 063293/p/1 there is room for a pay site such as this, in fact it would probably save sites like Flying legends from going under due to cost.

CrazySchmidt wrote:I for one, I will not pay for membership to skin download services. The IL-2 series has functioned this long without it's fans having to pay for third party services such as skin downloads, it will survive well beyond the memory of IL2Skins.com with the services of similar new and upcoming sites.


I believe that the launch of BOB will increase fanbase above and beyond that of IL2 and will provide new challenges for all websites that provide a download service.

It is inevitable that some sites will take the subscription route.

However be assured that Airwarfare will never charge for downloads or introduce a registration scheme.

How do we manage it?
It hasn't been easy but through a balance of adverts and donation, plus being careful about what services we offer costs are kept very low. So low in fact that 2005 was profitable, hence the reduction in advertising. Spare money will be used to double our bandwidth and webspace ready for BOB.


CrazySchmidt wrote:I sincerely hope I have not offended any Airwarfare or IL-2 members with my opinion within this post, but I feel very strongly about this topic.


All opinions are welcome Schmidttie :)
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:59 pm

CrazySchmidt, absolutely no offense taken and in fact, I very much defend your right to your beliefs and opinions. That's one of the things that makes http://www.airwarfare.com a better forum than UBI. We can just come out with it and discuss things. That to me is the healthiest, happyest and in the end, besat thing for flight sims in general and IL-2/Maddox in particular.

I think I'll also have a section where people can download missions and an area for coops to be posted etc. This way, all the heavy bandwidth and server intensive stuff can be found at one site for a low yearly cost. Remember, this is $10.00 U.S. a YEAR and that's all. We could also have an area where squads could have their sites as well and work things out. Pulling together, we can have a great server system and not have censorship of ideas like we see at UBI and all the personality power grabs that go with it. The websites associated with this project would have complete control over their part of the site. We could even get Sharx to set up the suad sites and all and yes, I will insist he get paid for his service!

Anyone thinking I'm trying to enrich my "buddy" is mistaken because Sharx is not a personal friend, he is just respected by me for all the time and money he's already dumped into a mostly ungratefull crowd of selfish people. What I mean by that is not the people who already bought legal copies of the game and have contributed to sites like IL-2skins and other worthy projects. But let's face it, most of the more vocal crowd out their that won't pay the $10.00 a month are also the same people who are pirating the game (not you Schmitty, so don't take offense please!). These same ungratefull types buy games every week or month and play them less than four hours and then leave the discs in a ever growing stack of games they'll never play again. They do this all the while whining about a lowsy 10 bucks! I don't mind them because they don't matter. What matters is that the core, paying community needs to come together and get over petty differences and get this thing going again. Maybe you see the world and say why? I see the world and say why not?!!! :D

I am going to have an area where everyone can see where all the money goes. If someone... and believe it or not, I've already had a guy respond saying he'll give $100.00 a year just to help out... and if that person(s) don't want to be identified by name or nickname, I can put confidential by their name. Either way, I want this to all above board and beyond reproach. Any money raised for the site will be used for the site and everybody can see who (privacy allowing) paid what and where exactly the money went.

Does this mean it is going to be Luckyboy's Kingdom? Hell NO!!! I would never want to be cursed with being king of anything and my only, I repeat, my only intention here is to help. I love this game and I love the international feel of the community and would want to continue to promote that. I'll be looking for volunteers to act as kinda a board of trustees to serve as a governing board to direct how, when and where the money goes. Still, I find those who think $10.00 a YEAR... not a month or a quarter or a half a year, but a full year... come on guys, if we can just work together for a change in pace we can improve game development. If you don't think the game developers are looking at this thread and thinking about whether or not they can make a go of developing games you are again hiding your head in the sand.

Also, sites that are having trouble paying for bandwidth... hey, we could make it where they can have all their features except download and upload of heavy files hosted by this system for free. They could keep their autonomy and administer it, have their own forums and allow whoever they want and don't want in and even badmouth me while doing it without fear if some petty reprisal. I'm from Montana where there is a saying...

If you don't like the guy, leave him alone!

Like Montana which has about 600,000 people in the entire State, we are like it or not a small community and simply cannot afford to fragment and fracture ourselves to the degree we do now. We simply do not have a large, paying crowd to support game development.

BoB's stuff is going to have even bigger skin and coop files to hump around. The mission generators and all will be bigger files as well. Right click your FB file now and see how big it is and compare it to your other games. It's just going to get bigger, not smaller as time goes on and everything that goes into it will get bigger as well.

The first quarter of the year is the slowest time traditionally for most businesses. As a result, Sharx has his best shot at getting this project done now. I'm not going to spend more than another week or so waiting for responses. Either there will be enough support for it and right away or I'll let it drop for at least another year and by then, the lack of a site like this will have definately hurt the game. I don't want to see it happen. So, it's up to you guys. Don't sit and think about it. If 10 bucks for this expansive a site is something you'd have to think about, then I feel you probably don't feel like I do about the game and while it is as valid an opinion as any other, I'll just do the Montana thing and leave you alone. I simply will not spend more than a couple weeks trying to generate the needed interest in this deal because the interest is either there or it isn't and from this, I will be able to tell how folks feel about this game.
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Postby IV/JG1_Oesau on Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:47 am

Good to see that you have gone with a hosted solution, It's a better option IMHO.

$10 a year is nothing, but it's funny how people get tight when it comes paying something that you can get free ie. other skin sites. That's the real barrier here, and there has to be something offered that is so good people will be willing to pay for it. None of this has to be logical of course, people can be odd creatures at times and that's what makes running pay for service a difficult game.

I personally have no issue with paying $10 (US) a year, but that's just me and my wish to support the community more than really wanting lots of skins.
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:27 am

Yeah, the hosted thing from a first class company recommended by Sharx seems the way to go because you get them to handle most of the security issues and unlike me, they know what they're doing as far as servers and pipelines go.

As far as the getting something for free, I just don't see another site since http://www.il2skins.com that comes even up to 1% of what you got from Sharx old site. This site would have no pop-ups and maybe at the most... and probably not, an advertisement squeezed in a corner someplace for things directly good for flight sim gamers with any money raised from that plowed right back into the site.

It could also host patches of the game and allow people on dial-up the option of getting at a small charge patches on CD mailed to them. Everything would download as fast as your PC and connection could take it and you'd have more time to play the game. You could also save campaigns to the site when reformatting etc.

Also, the ability to have forums where most are civil and there would be areas you could choose to go where you could let it all hang out as well would promote the flow of information while giving people the option of not having to wade through as much trash if they don't want to hear it.

So let's see... the advantages of the site would be...

1) A site designed and code for it punched by Sharx and we all know how good he is and he is quite excellent at it.

2) Hosted by a server and pipeline that would actually handle the traffic without delays on our end of the deal.

3) The ability to download thousands of skins, not just for planes, but nose art, emblems etc.

4) The ability to store squad skins in an area where you can restrict who can get at them.

5) The ability to download coops and campaigns and all sorts of generating and management tools as well as patches for the game.

6) No pop-ups or flashing banners or other advertising nonsense.

7) No spamming of or giving out of any e-mail addresses. You will have to triple, actively opt in to get on a newsletter list "if even offered" and opting out again would be a one click deal. What I mean by triple opt in is a system where you have to actually check a box... not those boxes that come already prechecked, that's dishonest in my opinion. You have to check the box and then another screen is going to come up asking if you are sure you wanted to do this and again, you will have to check another box. then you will get sent an e-mail and you will have to respond to the e-mail by clicking on a link to activate such a thing. Then, in any newsletter, there would be an upfront and easy to find feature to just click once and you've opted back out and your e-mail address never goes to another company or anyone else.

8) The ability for squads to get there sites hosted under the same system as well at no cost and free access except to download or upload stuff which is the part that really costs money. They would have complete autonomy within their part of the site and can restrict access to whoever they want in their forums and whatnot.

9) Forums of all kinds free of UBI's interferrence.

We could also host videos, but that again is very bandwidth intensive and I'll have to talk to Sharx about how much more if at all it would cost to do so. If we had the bandwidth to do it, we could do that as well and movie makers would have a place they could post their stuff where they know it will download at a decent rate.

Now for the disadvantages...

You might be reminded that Luckyboy exists.

You'll be out $10.00 a year.
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Postby IV/JG1_Oesau on Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:35 am

It's good to flesh these things out so that the Ubi Zoo can be sold to.

As mentioned before, you have my support without a doubt.
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Postby wayno77 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:42 am

This sounds good to me. I can throw a roll of quarters for it. Believe it or not, that's how I have to do things. The part that really sounds interesting is the online storage part. Throw your folders up, do your reformat or whatever and get your folders back. Count me in....
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:59 am

Yep, just save your change for a couple of weeks and you'll have your yearly subscription paid for.

Now, what this idea needs most is everyone e-mailing their friends (I've alienated all of mine!) telling them about it. Don't try and push someone into doing something they don't want to do. Just e-mail them the link to this thread and they can make up their own minds. But we need to put a push on this deal because Sharx isn't going to be able to twiddle his thumbs forever waiting on us to make up our minds.

Also, don't feel shy about e-mailing me if we've had cross words in the past. Chances are, it was my fault entirely in the first place. Remember, it ain't about me or power or whatnot... it's about getting a living, thriving community going and growing and if it takes 10 bucks a year, I say so be it!
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Postby Luckyboy1 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:28 pm

After some calculating of IP demand, it would seem that hosting campaigns and coops will not be possible without raising the cost of the service per member way out of line.

Fortunately, we still have http://www.airwarfare.com to pick up at least some of that slack and it will remain vital as ever. I wanted to take this time to tell you EuroSnoopy is one of my all time heros of this game. He has faithfully kept the best interests of the game in mind at all times and has always tried to leave personalities out of it! I'll tell you guys, these site andministrators and some of the mods have a truly thankless job. they benefit us all and for the most part, we remain silent and when we do say something, it is to complain and rarely do we thank them for their efforts.

And now that I'm thinking about it... thanks Bearcat for all your work!
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